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Ray Sachs

Reviews Fuji X-M1 vs Sony Nex 6 - a user comparison

Fuji X-M1 vs Sony Nex 6 - a user comparison

  1. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  2. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus S.C. Charter Member

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    Real Name:
    BB
    Thanks, as always, Ray for your conversational and informative style of reviewing. Decisions, decisions...:026: Maybe they'll sell the X-M1 with the 10-24 at some point?
     
  3. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Real Name:
    Jack
    Thanks for the review Ray. Extremely informative as always, especially for a wanna be street photographer.

    I'm perplexed by the limitations imposed on usage of the auto ISO by most camera makers. If cameras are going to have that function, it should be to the fullest extent possible to maximize usability.

    In the RX1, is it possible to use auto ISO in M mode?

    How's the face detection in the XM1?

    Thanks!
     
  4. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I kinda doubt it - the 10-24 is likely to be at least half again the price of this camera body - maybe twice the price. I'd probably still rather have the XE1 with the EVF, but maybe an XE2 will be along with a tilt-screen and an EVF??? And if I was going to be shooting any normal focal length lenses, I'd still prefer the X-Pro to both, with its hybrid OVF/EVF...

    -Ray
     
  5. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus S.C. Charter Member

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    Real Name:
    BB
    True, true about the lens prices. These are all very important things to weigh for someone who is considering getting into the interchangeable lens Fuji camera world.
     
  6. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I sort of think the whole idea of auto-ISO was developed before the sensors were anywhere near as good as they are today and it was designed with the more limited sensors in mind. But with the amazing range that these sensors have, most cameras just feel hamstrung to me. Admittedly, for a lot of kinds of shooting, almost any sort of auto-ISO, even that in the Nex 6, will do. But anytime the shutter speed starts to matter or the tradeoffs between shutter speed and ISO, you just can't use it. With the Nikon, I can program it do pretty much exactly what I would do if I was making the adjustments manually, which is what you really want from an auto mode. To be able to set it up to carry out YOUR preferred changes. The Ricoh approach is very close, just lacks a bit in minimum shutter speed. But nothing else is even close, at least among the stuff that I've shot with. Its really discouraging because it seems like such a no-brainer and so easy to implement.

    The RX1 works great for auto ISO in manual mode. You can set both high and LOW ISO (the low ISO setting can force it to choose a higher shutter speed when you're shooting in aperture priority, so its sort of a work-around) and the exposure compensation works with it.. So, that's a lot better than its little brothers and sisters in the Nex line where auto ISO is totally disabled in manual mode. But honestly, after using it in a variety of ways, I don't find auto ISO in manual mode all that great because you still have to monitor the ISO and adjust the shutter speed to keep it in a reasonable range. And I ultimately don't find that any easier than just using manual ISO in aperture priority mode - there you watch the shutter speed and adjust the ISO to keep it all in line. Really sort of six of one, half a dozen of the other. But when you have an adequately high minimum shutter speed in aperture priority mode and once it maxes out the ISO it reduced the shutter speed below that, THAT is a system that requires almost no further attention - just let it do its thing and it frees you up to just make sure you're using the right aperture for what you're shooting and to work the exposure comp for stuff like shooting out of shadows or back lighting or whatever. So, the auto ISO is great in manual mode on the RX1, but I still don't find that a particularly useful approach.

    I hadn't tried the face detection on either camera, but I just did and both seemed to work quite well. Its a bit more of a PIA to get to on the Sony because you have to set the AF to multi-area before you can select it, where the Fuji just seems to understand what it needs to do to make it work if you select it. But once invoked, both seem to handle it very well...

    -Ray
     
  7. wt21

    wt21 Lounge Hall of Famer

    Aug 15, 2010
    Ray, I'm really disappointed with the plastic build quality of the XM1. Reminds me of the EPL2, though I am remembering (perhaps mistakenly) that the EPL2 was better.

    I've usually poo-pooed build quality complaints, but this XM1 does feel like the case could crack with a drop, and the shutter release feels flimsy. Mine sounds like a cheap piece of plastic over an audible coiled spring.

    Any thoughts on yours?
     
  8. aleksanderpolo

    aleksanderpolo Lounge Regular

    112
    Apr 18, 2013
    Real Name:
    Polo
    Ray, if one use one of the aperture-less X lens on the older mode dial-less body, is there a software mode dial that one can use to change from say A mode to S mode? How does it work?
     
  9. Garylh

    Garylh Lounge Veteran

    Thanks Ray.. Good writeup. Pretty nailed it between the way I think about the Nex vs Fuji designs and how they work.

    I been thinking since the announcement that the xm1 w/ 27 was the perfect kit.. The 16-50 was another matter, now I think I would e ok w/ getting the xm1 kit.. Most likely the 16-50 would end up on my xe1 though if I decide to go for it.

    I am one of those that do not mind plastic bodies. I bought a Nikon fg20 w/ 35-70 for a trip a long time ago (back about a year after they were released). It got knocked around a lot and I still have that beat up body still today. Maybe I am just lucky, but that left me the impression of not worrying about it being plastic.

    Gary
     
  10. Garylh

    Garylh Lounge Veteran

    I have the 27 that I use on the xe1 and xp1.

    The mag button button used for manual focus now doubles as a aperture adjustment dial. When u turn it past f16 on the 27, u go to A mode.

    Gary
     
  11. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    It really doesn't feel notably different from the XE1, other than its smaller. I don't know - I may just not be all that picky about this kind of thing, but I've never reacted that way to the feel of a camera. I guess if its lighter it somehow feels less substantial - the RX1 is obviously built like a damn TANK but that may just be due to its weight. But I've never had one that felt like it was gonna fall apart in my hands and, conversely, never had one that I thought it would be a good idea to go around dropping. I've never really seriously damaged a camera except once by tightning down a cheap thumbs-up knockoff too much and busting through a hot-shoe, but that was on a rock solid camera and was purely user error, errr.... stupidity... I don't like that the shutter button isn't threaded for a cable release or a soft release, but it feels OK in use as is. Overall, its feels about how I'd expect a camera of its size to feel - not like a brick, but solid enough. I'd seen your reaction to it, but I just didn't have the same feeling.

    -Ray
     
  12. aleksanderpolo

    aleksanderpolo Lounge Regular

    112
    Apr 18, 2013
    Real Name:
    Polo
    Thanks Gary. I mean aperture priority -> shutter priority. With a physical dial it would be easier (still not as easy as a mode dial though I think) to turn the S knob and a physical aperture ring to switch mode. But without aperture ring scrolling from f2.8 all the way pass f16 to A with a scroll wheel sounds like a backward idea. That's why I am wondering if they update the firmware in XE1 and XP1 to enable a software mode dial or something like that? I am also wondering if it is a good idea to mix and match two different design philosophy in a system...

    On the Sony side, it is mind-boggling why they can't implement the auto-ISO of RX1 in their NEX line, it's like they are made by two different departments that don't talk to each other... maybe that's the case.
     
  13. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    It works pretty much like the ones with an aperture ring. You adjust the aperture with the adjustment dial to the left of the thumb grip (that thing finally has SOMETHING to do in life!) and when you go past f22, the mode indicator (always shown on the screen) switches out of "A". If you're in auto on the shutter speed dial, it switches first to manual, and then another click moves it to program. If the shutter speed is set to a particular speed, you'll be in manual while you move through the aperture settings, and then past f22, it switches to shutter priority. It's all quite simple and logical in use...

    Edit - Ooops - I missed that Gary had already answered this.

    -Ray
     
  14. serhan

    serhan Lounge All-Pro

    May 7, 2011
    NYC
    Thanks for the comparison review.

    Nex 16-50mm zoom lens doesn't have the greatest IQ esp on the corners with auto distortion correction. Also electronic zooming sucks compared to mechanical zooming, but it makes the combo comparable to panasonic LX size and range. So it is for P&S upgraders or people who are looking for P&S size high IQ cameras. More comparable to XM1, nex-3n with 16-50 was selling $300-350 used, $450 new. I had better night shots w nex-6+16-50 then RX100 due to the nex 6 grip/viewfinder. Finally nex is getting high quality 16-70 f/4 Zeiss zoom which should make the nex line more attractive, esp with the new 24MP AA'less nex 7. But then it will be pricey compared to Fuji std zoom combo's. For more complete native nex lenses with reviews, you can check the lens database in our nex forum (which includes the new Zeiss Touit lenses too):
    Sony NEX lens database

    For nex cameras, the level of focus peaking has to be changed depending on the light and the contrast of the lens. You can misfocus easily. I prefer the 5x zoom for precise focusing, much better then any af cameras. Also for street photography I think rf lenses is a better workaround with nex compared to native lenses. You can shoot with fixed S shutter speed and the lens has the aperture/dof ctrl and the camera adjust the auto iso. Freddytto on nex forum has very good street photos from NY w/ cheap Russian rf lenses. His latest jupiter 8 review with nex 7 is very good:
    Nex7 and Jupiter-8 50mm f2.0
     
  15. stratokaster

    stratokaster Lounge Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    873
    Dec 27, 2010
    Kiev, Ukraine
    Real Name:
    Pavel
    I must also add that the shutter priority mode of Sony NEX-6 is particularly useless for low-light shooting: it will not open the lens past f/4 and will raise the sensitivity all the way to ISO 3200 instead! Combined with lack of minimum shutter speed setting in the aperture priority mode, this makes this camera somewhat challenging to shoot if your light is changing quickly.
     
  16. pictogramax

    pictogramax Lounge Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    953
    Aug 18, 2011
    Belgrade, Serbia
    Thanks for interesting read, Ray! Have you tried manual focusin with magnified view on Nex6?

    If you set lower button customizable button for magnified view, it is fairly easy and convenient. Just lower your thumb from control wheel, one press brings large magnified view to fine-tune the distance (zone) you want and with a half-press of shutter you're back and ready to go. It became a second nature for me as I shoot mu Nex3 with legacy glass for two years now, and is much more precise that peaking (which I do not find too dependable also).
     
  17. serhan

    serhan Lounge All-Pro

    May 7, 2011
    NYC
    Min shutter speeds for nex 5 was 1/30 which is increased to 1/60 sec for the newer 5n/6 models. RX100 has still has 1/30 sec and RX1 has 1/80 sec in aperture priority. They should try to fix that by making adjustable but it hasn't happened yet. Usually with manual lenses upto 50mm 1/60 works w/ nex but for longer eg 100mm macro I had to adjust S priority.

     
  18. serhan

    serhan Lounge All-Pro

    May 7, 2011
    NYC
    I like the peaking w/ manified view:) Other approach might be using B&W jpgs w/ min peaking, which I haven't tried.

     
  19. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Lounge Legend Subscribing Member

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    Real Name:
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I've used it that way on the RX1, but I was trying to use it with the full view just to visualize DOF on the Nex. If I was using legacy glass, I suspect I'd use it for critical focus and use the focus distance scale on the lens for setting up zone focus. I was just trying to use it as a work around for zone focus and found it didn't work too well in that context. I think Serhan's comment, above, about changing the levels depending on the light and the contrast of the lens to avoid mis-focussing. I probably had it set to HIGH, so its no wonder that it was showing more in focus than was actually the case...

    -Ray
     
  20. norman shearer

    norman shearer Lounge Veteran

    Nice comparison review Ray. I can certainly relate to your take on the 2 cameras regarding street shooting. With the NEX series zone focusing with a Voigtlander or Leica adapted lens is probably the best way to go. For those that shoot with a VF then maybe the AF is just about good enough for most shoots but personally I think the 5N AF is dismal and I expect the NEX 6 is only marginally better. I like to be able to just push that shutter home at the right moment rather than wait an indeterminate time for the AF to catch up. There are so many variables to contend with when street shooting it's best to simplify when you have the opportunity. That's why I can appreciate your fondness of the Nikon A. With the E-PL5 I can set no minimum shutter speed so have to either pick a suitably high iso or shoot in shutter priority mode.

    You've used the E-PL5 Ray. Can you give me your view on how the shutter button compares with the NEX 6? I find the Sony NEX 5N button a lot less responsive and am sure I sometimes introduce blur into a shot as a result. With both cams I basically have them round my neck and cradle the underside of the camera with my thumb resting on the shutter so I can shoot whenever without arm/hand movements giving away my intentions. I adapted that style with the E-PL5 because it's so damn small and easy to press a wrong button. Now I shoot that way with the Sony 5N too so the shutter responsiveness (or lack of) has only recently bugged me..

    Does either the Olympus E-P5 or Panasonic GX7 allow minimum shutter speed when auto iso is set? Both cameras appeal to me as potential upgrades for my E-PL5 next year.
     
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